casnu:liste loi gugde

Names of Countries in Wikipedia

If the name of an article is a name (a sequence of cmevla), then periods are needed nor in front, nor after each cmevla. But in the text of the article they are needed as in any other Lojban text.

So, if the article is about {la .antiguas.}, then it should have the address {antiguas}. Inego 02:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

would you like to give a rational for that? i initially thought that way, but i now notice that, for example, an article about <.iecuax. pe la natsyrat.> would be called such, but without the tail it would just be <.iecuax> with the former scheme, which seems inconsistent. mi'e bobas 03:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

If the name of the article isn't of form {la + sequence of cmevla}, then it is written in the full form: {la glico selmikce}, or, in your case, {la .iecuax. pe la nazaRET}. If we omit {la} here, the resulting *{.iecuax. pe la nazaret.} will be ungrammatical. At the same time, the final and starting periods are never needed in names of Wikipedian articles, -- for the sake of not increasing the enthropy. Inego 14:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

i see. and don't you mean 'entropy'? mi'e bobas 16:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh. Entropy I mean. Thanks for correction. U nou, me not nativ Inglish speeker.Inego 00:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

ma cmene so'o gugde

• Nagorno Karabakh
  • zoi zoi nagorno zoi valsi lu cpana le cmana li'u lo slovo .i zoi zoi dağ zoi valsi lu cmana li'u lo tirkce .i lu la ma'acpan. karabax. li'u pei? mi'e Pier 06:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Tibet
  • zo .pyd. ji zo .bod? mi'e Pier 06:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Greece
  • xesygu'e Stifynsemons 18:09, 3 la pamast. 2009 (UTC)
• Cyprus

cmene kanxe

zo e poi valsi na kakne lo nu pagbu lo cmevla i mi pu bastygau zo jev i ku'i mi na birti i la'a zo jol a zo kan xagmau i pe'i pei

mi zmanei zo joik. zo jev .iku'i zoi ry. jol .ry rafsi zo joi .iseni'ibo zo jol. ji'a xamgu mi'e Pier 23:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

zoi gy. Sweden gy.

ma xelfanva fale liste zbasu gasnu la'o zoi gy. Sweden gy. .i mi nslfa'i firi .i mi nitcu le xelfanva mu'i lenu ciska le roksodna citri .i mi ckire ledo sidju Stifynsemons 05:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

nuncmefanva

so are name translations acceptable? i think they are. at least one other person has suggested 'dizguhe' for belgium. mi'e bobas 06:49, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I think using lujvo like "bergu'e" as country names is dangerous since "bergu'e" might refer to some northern country. Using a cmene like "bergug" might be acceptable. However, I think translating names that way might be problematic because a name like "bakygug" might be harder to recognize than a name starting with "ital". I think it would be a good idea if all country names were standardized on jbovlaste. --Danogo 07:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

as for berguhe, thats why we use the word "la". besides that, you could use "berlutyguhe", i suppose. as for recognisability, "ropno" isnt exactly recognisable anyway. neither are most lojban words for that matter. mihe bobas 08:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

i checked jbovlaste, and it doesnt seem to have entries for any countries. when it does, we can use those and, if they arent the lujvo form, put the lujvo form in parentheses. i hope they are, though. mihe bobas 08:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel strongly that translating place-names is a bad idea, for a few reasons.

1. Often names reflect archaic language. So modern Germans do not think of "Deutschland" as "country of the people", because "deutsch" no longer means "of the people" as it used to.
2. Often names reflect a foreign language. Modern Italians do not think of "Italia" as "pasture-land" or "cattle-land" because it comes from an ancient Greek word.
3. Even when a place-name is in the language of the residents, they do not tend to parse/translate the name. So when I hear "Springfield" or "Eighty-Four" (towns in the USA), I don't envision a field in springtime, or the digits "84".

So I support {italias} for Italy. Countries with associated gismu are trickier. For France, I use {fasygu'e}, but {fasygug} and {frans} seem valid to me.

Besides these reasons, I have yet to see examples of place-name-translation in Lojban materials or writings. Maybe you can point some out.

mi'e komfo,amonan 00:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with komfon on this. I think this idea of translating the names of places is at odds with the normal way of doing things in Lojban. A lujvo normally refers to a general type of thing, unless one of the components of the lujvo is a cultural gismu (ketco, ropno, jungo, etc.). When referring to a unique thing, then, we would normally use a cmevla (perhaps sometimes a fu'ivla). I suggest that (except for the cases where there is an appropriate cultural gismu available) the names of countries should be cmevla that approximate the name in the local language. If there are mutliple local languages, we can either try to combine them (similarly to how the gismu were made) or use some neutral historical name.—sen ^{(ko tavla)} 00:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I also support that view. Arguments are already stated. --mi'e .emuzest. 07:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

the reason i support translation is that it's more purist, more neutral, and less arbitrary than picking a specific phase of a language and extracting a nameword from it. regardless, i think we should go with whatever they have on jbovlaste, when they do. mihe bobas 17:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

In practice, jbovlaste has very limited coverage of cmevla, especially if you count only the ones that are officially approved. I think there is actually something a bit arbitrary about using translated terms for specific countries. For instance, "bakygu'e" could refer to any country that is associated in some ways with cows, such as one whose main export is beef. It seems arbitrary to use it specifically to refer to Italy. What would the place structure of such a lujvo be, anyway?—sen ^{(ko tavla)} 17:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I want to pick up this discussion again as it has seemed to dwindle out and nothing has been done with the issue. I don't agree with those changes that were made, and have a feeling that many others here felt uncomfortable as well. I feel that using lujvo for country names is arbitrary in the way that it is used several places at the moment. Examples are listed above. I consider it more purist either. I know the grammatical legality of using brivla behind {la} and using it as a normal name, but I think a cmevla would be better in most instances. Jbovlaste should be the leading star in this matter, and it is true that it does not contain many country names. But that doesn't help when jbovlaste isn't checked before changes are made. Norway has had its entry in jbovlaste (under {noreg.}) before I began studying lojban, and thus before the changes was made. --mi'e .emuzest. 09:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. In the meantime, there has been a proposal to use la'o zoi ... zoi in article names until a naming standard has been established. However, I'm not sure whether that proposal should apply to names that already exist in jbovlaste, like noreg. --Danogo 05:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Using cmevla is fine when there's no gismu or fu'ivla, but, if it is carefully thought out, a cmevla based on lujvo would be better. But I don't see the la'o zoi ... zoi as very appropriate, though I've used it a lot lately with the year pages. Which language do you use for the name? Consider that India is also known, in common Western languages, as Inde, Indie, and Indien, plus there are undoubtedly variants kanji, tamil, cyrillic to name a few. The la'o zoi scheme is okay for references inside article when you don't have time to think through carefully, but for article titles it would be better to make an attempt at lojbanization of the name using the best available native pronunciation. If disagreement is generated, let it be generated on the casnu page, not in the move logs. It's not the end of the world to move pages occasionally, and the original chosen name is probably good as a redirect anyway. But given the general lack of traffic, creating a template like termo'a:cmene preti would allow those who do use jbo.wikipedia to find lists of questionable names easily and reliably Stifynsemons 15:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

urugai or rugva

There is a stub article about Uruguay that's titled "rugva". Should that article be linked to urugai entry in this list? Is it official? May it be "rugvagu'e?

Not really. The article should really be expanded first. Also, it needs to be retitled "uruguais". "rugva" is an undefined gismu, & those are not available for use in the standard language. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan 13:44, 6 la bimast. 2008 (UTC)